‘Why don’t you use a vet more?’

2008 November 29

There’s been a massive influx of new readers to this blog as a consequence of my post about the realities of pork production but, while most of the newcomers are fairly pragmatic, a few have been disturbed by some of the things we do on the croft.

One question that arose in emails from three people was “why don’t you use a vet more” or words to that effect.

All three were a little perturbed that I was draining haematomas, lancing abscesses, administering medications by injection, delivering piglets and killing ill piglets.

One lady asked, “Do you really put your arm inside the sow? Surely that’s a job for someone with proper training.”

Another said, “You should have got the vet out for the sick piglet. It was really terrible that you made no effort to get a vet to save it.”

What all three of my correspondents, and many other people, fail to grasp is that we’re not keeping a couple of over-indulged pets that must be saved come what may as some sort of sop to our modern consciences.

We’re also not in the cosseted position of having more money than sense.

Instead, we keep livestock to provide food for our table, to pay the bills for maintaining the croft, to maintain rare breeds, and to provide other people with the opportunity to keep livestock.

We’re also rather more practical and pragmatically minded than is the norm in modern, urbanised Western culture.

The reality is that without deep pockets that contain both money and sentimentality there are many times when it is not economic, practical or timely to call out a vet.

At times like that, I do what I can for the sick or injured animal and, if it’s beyond our ability to prevent suffering, sometimes I kill them. (I’m changing from collective to singular and back tonight as “we” make the decisions, but “I” do the most of the work. The Other Half is less skilled and less mental prepared to handle the “icky stuff”, but she will pitch in if she has to.)

Many, many people don’t like to hear that, but if you’re going to breed livestock then you must be prepared to make hard choices.

We keep five sows and two boars, farrowing about 100 piglets a year and so we get our share of injuries and illnesses.

If we used a vet every time we had a sick or injured pig, we’d have to put the price of our weaners up by at least £10 each, and probably more.

Instead, we have a set veterinary budget for the year, then prioritise and triage any casualties to fit that budget. 

Our breeding stock come first, bearing in mind age, productivity and bloodlines.

Young productive animals from good lines and expensive productive animals from show lines come first, older animals with a year or less of productivity come last.

Piglets from smaller litters (10 or less) come next, as their survival keeps our productivity up.

Big, strong piglets from large litters come after that.

Runts, especially from big litters, usually have to take their chances, although they may get a chance if our veterinary spend has been less than budgeted and we’re close to the end of the financial year.

We’ll do our best to save all injured or sick stock, but if they’re not valuable or productive enough to justify spending money on the vet, then they get put down if they’re suffering.

If they’re not suffering, I’ll do what I can for them and monitor them as frequently as necessary. If they don’t respond, they get put down.

As far as I’m concerned, what’s important is knowing the limits of our abililties.

I’m can clean and close a simple wound, I can administer injections in most locations, I can do an internal examination of a sow, I can deliver piglets, I can incise and drain an abscess, I can take a pig’s temperature, I can administer medications orally, and I can do a number of other simple procedures.

I can also do more complex ones with the guidance from a vet, either over the phone or via the internet (digital photos, videos and email make life a lot easier).

But I won’t try to close complex wounds, such as Lucky’s shoulder injury or Daisy’s torn vulva.

I won’t hope for the best when I have a sow with internal bleeding after a difficult farrowing.

I won’t ignore the symptoms of disease, hope that my own diagnosis is correct or rely on improvised, home remedies to treat those symptoms.

If I’m not sure or don’t know, then I’ll consult the vet via the telephone or even call them out if the situation warrants it and/or money permits.

If there’s any chance at all that there’s a risk of contagion, then the vet will be called out regardless.

But when there’s neither time nor money and an animal is suffering beyond our ability to help it, it will be killed quickly and humanely.

None of that means we’re cruel, heartless or inhumane.

What it does mean is that we’re practical, pragmatic and doing what we can within our means to do the best for our livestock, even if it means we’re not using a vet as often as some people think we should.

26 Responses leave one →
  1. 2008 November 30

    You don’t have to justify yourself. You clearly know what you are doing and those people have not been reading your blog for long enough :-)
    I’m a lurker – I’ve read for a long time, but this is the first time I’m commenting. My husband and 3 children live as differently as we possibly could from you and your family, but we love your blog and love reading what a world totally different from ours is like. We appreciate your respect for the animals you care for, and your respect for life in general. Wishing you luck throughout the winter (one thing we do share: LOTS of snow and cold in the winter)!

  2. 2008 November 30

    Well said. Our vet is available for phone consultations (no charge) and is very practical. He is also one of the few vets around that has a real mixed animal practice. However, there are many vets that are ready and willing to help a person part with their money fast. People with pet chickens spending $5000 for medical care on a $4.00 chicken, is not unheard of.

    You and your family are just practicing good husbandry – knowing your limitations and dealing with the inevitable.

  3. 2008 November 30

    I agree with Throwback, out here in France almost everyone in the countryside keeps at least a few chickens, maybe rabbits as well (we certainly do).

    There are plenty of stories around of expats taking their poorly chicken into the vet, fighting with the difficulties of not speaking the language as well as they should and ultimately spending a lot more than the bird is or could be worth.

    All of this in front of the ‘locals’ who are always flabbergasted that someone would go to so much trouble.

    For our chickens and rabbits, they’re our food source, but I have not yet come across a need to go near a vet with them, that would only happen should a contagious ailment hit my flock.

  4. 2008 November 30

    Not justifying, explaining. Having said that, no amount of explanation will satisfy some people!

  5. 2008 November 30
    mummys little angel permalink

    mmm I wonder how many sheep farmers would get on if they had to ‘call the vet’ for every sheep when the lambing season was upon them.

  6. 2008 November 30
    Margaret permalink

    Yet more confirmation of how far removed people are from food production.

    (I am still trying to get over the idea that there are people out there who do not realise what meat is and how it is produced. Truly a scary state of affairs.)

  7. 2008 November 30

    I agree with Stonehead a farmer is usually switched on and knows what to do and able to do what is needed.
    I have no problem with people doing basic treatment, provided they know what they are meant to be doing, why and what the outcome may be and if help is needed to call it in.
    A wise man knows when he needs help and asks, a fool does not ask.

    What l have a problem with is
    1) People that ignore a problem then get abusive at vet staff due to the cost of fixing whatever, which if sorted at the start would not only have cost a fraction of the price to fix it but would have saved a hell of a lot of suffering and pain. Generally this is owners of what is termed small animals (pets).

    2) People that have a go to save money, but do not know what the actual problem is, decide on an arbitrary treatment “cause it worked on some dog/cat/rabbit/ etc with a sort of vaguely similar complaint. All this does is cause suffering and a lot of the time cost a hell of a lot more.

    Margaret l am still thinking someone is lying when they tell me meat comes from killing those poor cute animals…. pffft it is a known fact that meat comes from supermarkets and butchers.

  8. 2008 November 30
    Angela permalink

    Having had a pet cat die directly from a vets mistake in writing a prescription (^ x the dose of drug she should have had :-( ( and them then alter the patient notes to try and cover it up, and another almost put my dog under a general anasthetic for a biopsy for lumps which were clearly reactions to the treatment the same vets had been giving him (but this vet didnt bother to look at the notes), I have become a lot more questioning and active in vets treatment of my animals. Not interfering or not supportive, but more interested and involved.

    Stonehead you know your animals best and you clearly know your abilities and the limits of them. The Berkshire pigs best hope lies in them being viable farm animals, a few pet ones will not save the breed and umlimited vets bills would make such farming uneconomic. So good on you and keep proper farming, not hobby pet sanctuary farming!

  9. 2008 November 30
    Cathy permalink

    I’m wondering if any of the emailers have “stock” animals???

  10. 2008 November 30

    Cathy, I suspect not.

    Speaking of people who make their thoughts known via email rather than in openly available comments, I’ve often wondered how common this is as I’ve seen little reference to this practice on other blogs.

    So I was quite interested to discover that Ezer K’negdo refers to people contacting her via email to comment on posts on her blog.

    Why do people feel the need to comment in private, especially when anonymous comments can be left? Do they want to reach the writer directly and without outside observation? Do they mind when their thoughts and comments are referred to in public? Do they fear seeing their arguments discussed by all and sundry?

    It’s intriguing to say the least, but at least I now know that other bloggers also draw responses via email.

    And incidentally to this, I wonder how many people reading Ezer K’negdo’s contribution recognised her pseudonym and understood the countless meanings that can and have been read into it over thousands of years? It certainly left me considering the meanings she may have in mind in choosing to be known as Ezer K’negdo.

    Now, be honest, who knew immediately what I was referring to and who is about to use Google to find out?

  11. 2008 November 30

    Angela sorry to hear about your problems. Re the notes if it was on the computer then generally they are unalterable for legal reasons and to avoid anyone being able to change them. Also the dose amount should by law, have been on the medication.
    As to the rest won’t comment as l do not know the full story but there is the rcvs (governing body) if anyone is unhappy with treatment. I may make myself unpopular with vet staff for saying that but l never did worry about popularity to much.

    I had no hope with working out the words have had to google them. I have sent the occasional pvt email to bloggers but that is when l do not want to bring dissent to something or have information that l do not want to put openly, or l want some info and it is private. Other than that l like the open comments.

  12. 2008 November 30

    I think the other thing that people who only keep pet animals don’t often “get”

    is that one can develop a very good instinct for just when a hen or stock aninimal is in need of a vet rather than one’s own ministrations…if you keep animals for eggs or meat, then yoy keep a close eye on them and can often spot one who is just a bit under the weather , at first…and monitor it.

    and then either treat it, dispatch it…. or contact the vet, as needed.

    I can do ( and have done ) most of what you list…and was often required to do so when living in a rather more remote place and keeping horses and sheep…

    It is a normal part of larger aniimal keeping that vets advise and often prescribe medication and show the owner how to administer it..but I guess a lot of pet animal owners maybe don’t realise that fact….

    Having said that, I would MUCH rather administer a dose of something orally to a hen, than a heavyweight hunter mare of 17 HH………

    :-)

  13. 2008 November 30

    Oh and I have had email comments which people are not prepared to put on my blog…

    I tend to ignore them…….UNLESS they have a very good reason ( as described above) if they don’t post it in the comments…..I don’t want to know….

  14. 2008 November 30
    Poppy permalink

    I agree with you about calling in the vet or not. But it is about experience. The more you know about your animals, speaking as a horse, dog and cat owner, the more you know when to call in the vet. Obviously some of your readers are not quite as knowledgable. Perhaps they will look at the posts and think again?

  15. 2008 November 30
    sarah the suburbanite permalink

    *puts hand up* I googled. I was only popping on for 10 minutes whilst I had tea. (Ham sandwiches, grown on small bushes, then collected by the Tofu dwarves of Duntalkcoprolite) and now I’ve been ages reading about Ezer K’negdo. Interesting though! (but nothing to do with the literacy lessons I’m supposed to be planning!)

  16. 2008 November 30

    Sarah, I’m glad you found the research interesting. I believe people tend to learn more from incidental, rambling curiosity than they do from planned education, no matter how useful the latter is. (That will earn me a clout from the Other Half.)

    Back on topic, and I think the people who emailed me were not so much lacking in knowledge as lacking an acceptance of both responsibility and reality. The way I read their emails was that they called a vet for even the most minor ailments afflicting their pets as it was then someone else’s responsibility.

    Also, if their pet (or perhaps companion animal as one lady put it) did have something serious wrong with it and it died, then it was the vet’s fault and not theirs. I am reading a little between the lines here, but I did form the impression that they couldn’t accept that animals die without there being someone to blame. So, if they call the vet for everything, then if something does go wrong it’s quite clear who is to blame.

    Over and above that, I think at least one of the people who emailed has the view that by showering money on their pet, then it shows what a nice, caring person they are.

    (And if I’m wrong, please feel free to reply in a comment!!)

  17. 2008 November 30
    mummys little angel permalink

    ‘I believe people tend to learn more from incidental, rambling curiosity than they do from planned education, no matter how useful the latter is’

    Yep totally agree with that, and so will most home educators..sorry OH but you appear not to be the ‘norm’ for teaching any way (and I mean that as a compliment!)

    As for showering with money means they care, I have come across a few of those in forums. I have recently been ‘educated’ on how to keep my chickens and what they need in their gizzards. So I can only conclude that for that last several years I have been doing it all wrong!

  18. 2008 December 1
    Ellendra permalink

    I was the one who posted your cut-and-come-again pigs blog in several places. I was laughing so hard reading it that I couldn’t breathe, and I knew some friends who would get a kick out of it too.

    Its amazing how people can give lectures on topics they have no firsthand knowledge of. Environmental policies are decided by people who sit in air-conditioned offices in the city all day, while ignoring those who actually live and participate in the ecosystem. Welfare laws are written by the rich. Trade policies are written by those who have never run a business. Nutritional guidelines are written by lawyers.

    I’m ranting, I’d better stop. At any rate, I love your blog Stoney, I started reading it back when you were active at Selfsufficientish.com. Nice to see that so much is the same on both sides of the pond.

  19. 2008 December 1
    Angela permalink

    “”Angela sorry to hear about your problems. Re the notes if it was on the computer then generally they are unalterable for legal reasons and to avoid anyone being able to change them. Also the dose amount should by law, have been on the medication.”"

    Sadly they were paper notes (we finally got them and the alterations were obvious) and the dose on the medication was the one that was wrong and was multiple x what was on their notes.

    To us it was a foul up, our cat was dead so complaining externally wouldnt bring her back!, and vets are human we recognised that they can make mistakes too, we just didnt like the covering up aspect of it :(

    It just has made us more questioning and involved in any animals treatment and not so hands off.

  20. 2008 December 1

    :-) Glad you “get” why I chose my pseudonym. Flattered you took the time to find out!

    Some people email their comments to me rather than post for personal, appropriate reasons, but I find that mostly the people that email rather than publicly comment are nasty trolls who want to make sure I take their ignorant rants personally. And they are too cowardly to take the chance that other commentors would take them to task for their nastiness. Especially when it comes to controversial topics. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me – feel free to respectfully disagree; my blog is just my humble opinions – but I don’t tolerate nastiness or ignorant bigotry.

    On another note, I was shocked that some people have no idea where meat comes from – I was literally shocked at your post where you related the story about the woman who didn’t know where pork came from. We don’t even eat pork and even my 4 year old knows where it comes from. It’s one thing to say, ok, I don’t know where this red pepper was grown, but really? Not knowing that pork comes from pigs? That’s a bit funny.

  21. 2008 December 1

    My research was done a very long time ago—at old-fashioned Presybterian Sunday Schools where we had to compare the “modern” English interpretations of the Bible with direct translations from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. (I put “modern” in brackets as we used to study older printings of the King James Bible.)

    It’s interesting how things stick in the mind as the first thing that popped into my head when I read your pseudonym was “Genesis 2.18-24″. Mind you, I can never remember telephone numbers.

    Anyway, back to my point. I’ve also been fortunate to have several Jewish friends over the years, both Ashkenazi and Sephardic, and encompassing Orthodox, Conservative and Reconstructionist views.

    Hence, my observation about the countless meanings of your pseudonym.

  22. 2008 December 1
    Cathy permalink

    I don’t see the difference between an educated person who raises stock animals and a licensed Vet. The only thing separating the two is a piece of paper. I’ve treated bumblefoot, but didn’t dare treat my dog’s swollen pinna, which required anestesia and an operation. The chicken healed with no infecton, the dog on the other hand was overly costly and required many medications and many visits to the Vet because she was not healing. Eventually I gave up shelling the money out and took her off the 3 different medicated ear washes (used epsom salt and water), pain medications, ear drops, and finished up the 3rd perscription of antibiotics (the first 2 she didn’t finish because the Vet said they weren’t working), and I took her stitches out myself. The Vet refused to see her after my hands were in the deal. She healed up in no time, this was after 5 weeks of weekly visits and constant switching of medications. Makes you wonder.

    The difference between a “pet” or “companion animal” and “stock”, is the pet isn’t being raised to eat or useful for anything more than a buddy. I’ve come to find, stock animals are less inflicted with infections and other problems, because they’re looked after in ways a pet wouldn’t be. Their diets are more controlled, their living areas are controlled, they’re very well taken care of, just in different ways. Cracks me up when people wash their dogs almost weekly, they forget that a dog’s natural oils protect their skin and coat and ignore how harmful it is to wash that away. But the dog smells pretty! Meanwhile the dog is suffering with skin problems. Very humane, eh?

    People who don’t raise these animals have no understanding of the “works” of the whole operation. If they had to take a dozen chickens to the vet, they’d get a better idea of why those who do raise their own, handle their own.

  23. 2008 December 1

    Cathy l have to disagree about there being no difference between a vet and untrained person. There is good and bad vets out there but to say there is no difference is a major insult, and also the recipe to allow animals a lot of pain by disregarding help because “you can do it better”.

    You may have got lucky with the ear l won’t comment apart from saying that you and anyone else is always free to ask for second opinions at another vets. (l could say a lot more but promise l won’t) I stand by my comments in an earlier post re vets and treatment.

    Bathing l agree and the other day lifted a bottle of smelly shampoo out of a persons hand and told them not to bath the puppy weekly it would buggar up the skin. The “smell” was just a normal puppy. If it rolled in something that stunk fine bath him otherwise let him be. The owner was shocked, it took a longer conversation than the bit l posted here.
    On the other hand some dogs do need weekly baths and treatment that had nothing to do with being bathed too much. It is thanks to breeders who have breed horrendous skin problems into animals.

  24. 2008 December 1

    It appears this is being interpreted as an anti-vet post. It’s not. There are times when I don’t use a vet, and there are times when I do. Our vets are very good, very approachable, happy to offer advice, and three of them are experienced with pigs (which is quite rare nowadays). I’ve explain my reasons for not using vets for every injury and ailment, and nowhere among those reasons was that I think vets are rubbish or that I can do just as good a job.

  25. 2008 December 4

    :-)

  26. 2008 December 10
    Bilbo permalink

    I confess, I usually lurk but thoroughly enjoy all your posts, I learn so much from them and really appreciate the time you take to blog so often
    .
    Just wanted to say thank you for all the information you share and sorry that you’ve had such silly emails from people who obviously just don’t “get it”. They are probably the same folk who don’t “get” why you haven’t filled up a credit card to its limit in order to buy “Wees” and whatevers and loads more unnecessary electronic junk “just because it’s Christmas”.

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